The Rolling Thunder Finale with Scarlet Rivera

1975-12-08, Madison Square Garden, New York, NY

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Update June 2023: This interview is included along with 40+ others in my new book ‘Pledging My Time: Conversations with Bob Dylan Band Members.’ Buy it in hardcover, paperback, or ebook here!

Today, our trip through every show on Bob Dylan’s 1975 Rolling Thunder comes to its end, on the 45th anniversary of the grand finale at Madison Square Garden. And, when I thought about how to end this series, there was only one name: Scarlet Rivera.

No musician is more closely associated with Rolling Thunder’s sound, image, and general vibe than Scarlet. Despite only being onstage for part of the show, she came to embody everything you think about when you think “Rolling Thunder.” It’s hard to imagine the sound of Desire without Scarlet’s violin and it’s hard to imagine the look of the Rolling Thunder stage without Scarlet standing to Dylan’s right, wearing some mystical outfit, staring Bob down.

Scarlet and I spoke back in October, before this special series even began, but I wanted to save her interview for the grand finale. Here’s my conversation with Scarlet Rivera:

Dylan famously first spotted you on the street from his car. Before then, what was your career looking like?

I flew a one-way ticket to New York City. I had this belief that I was going to break into rock music and do something with the violin that wasn't in music yet.

The first paying gig I did was with Ornette Coleman. He introduced me to the Revolutionary String Ensemble, which was very avant-garde jazz-ish music. I took some lessons with Leroy Jenkins, the black jazz violin player. After a couple, he told me I didn't need lessons. I also was playing at night with a 13-piece Cuban band to make money.

Did you think of yourself as a jazz musician back then?

No, I was just experimenting. I auditioned for a lot of rock things too. I also had my own rock fusion band at the time called Mammoth.

There’s a Blues for Allah sticker on your violin in the Scorsese movie. Were you in the Deadhead scene?

No, but I liked that sticker. I related to the skeleton playing the violin, so I put it on my violin and kept it on the whole time. That was my traveling companion.

I gather your first live performance with Bob was at the Muddy Waters show.

That happened the same day that I met Bob. I was walking down 13th street off of 1st Ave. He pulled over and asked, "Can you play that thing?" We ended up in a conversation. Our conversation was short and sweet. Perhaps it knocked him off of his feet, because he said he had to hear me play. We went to his loft in the Village. He asked me to play along with him. He just didn't give me any information like, "This is what key it's in and here's a chart.” He didn't say anything about anything.

After playing for like an hour, he got up abruptly. He said, "I got to go hear a friend play in the Village. You want to come along?" I said, "Sure."

We jumped back in the car, went a few minutes away to the club the Bottom Line. His friend that was playing was Muddy Waters. I was expecting to watch the whole show from the bar. He went up and did one song with Muddy and the place erupted in just thunderous applause. At the end of that song, he went to the microphone and said, "Now I want to bring up my violinist."

You had no idea that was coming?

No, absolutely not. I was just flabbergasted. I scrambled on stage and yanked the violin out of the case very quickly. It had no amplification; I think they just put me in front of a microphone. I was listening carefully as the song was going, and Muddy threw me a solo. The whole band turned and watched me while I was soloing, including Muddy and Bob, staring me down. [chuckles] Then they both smiled and that was it.

Was that part of your audition, even if you didn't know it at the time?

Yes. Let’s see how she does live. Let's see how she does throwing her in the middle of something. Let's see how she does under pressure. I pulled it off. I passed all the tests that particular day.

You then record Desire. After you finished those sessions, do you think that's it? At what point did you find out you were going on tour?

Well, before the tour, I got a call from Bob asking me to go to Chicago with him to do a special event. That special event turned out to be the tribute to the man who signed him to CBS, John Hammond. Talk about trial by fire. This was live television in front of every major CBS executive and John Hammond. That was a huge amount of belief that I was going to pull that off, which I did too. It was quite nerve-wracking. As I look closely at my face during that tribute, I look a bit petrified.

I still don't know about a tour, but now I'm in touch with Rob Stoner and Howie Wyeth, because we are the group that continued from being the core band of Desire to the John Hammond special. It's possible one of them said something to me. I didn't get a direct call from Bob. I was informed by management, "You were chosen to be part of Rolling Thunder. Here's the tour schedule."

What do you remember from the tour rehearsals?

The band suddenly got huge and included Mick Ronson and Steven [Soles] and T Bone Burnett and Ronnie Blakley. Sometimes Bette Midler would sit in. She stopped in at least once. It was a big herding of cats. The task went to Rob Stoner to herd the cats and be the musical director.

Was the idea that you would primarily play on the Desire songs you had just recorded?

I believe Bob thought I could play on anything that I fit on, including stuff that was not on Desire. Although Desire was going to be a huge feature, I would end up playing on many other things, like “Just Like a Woman.”

How did your non-Desire songs songs get chosen? Would you just play on things and then at some point someone would say, yes, she sounds good on this song?

No, I don't think it was that loose. Bob had something to do with whether I was going to be tried out on a song. It had to come from him, because my participation was going to be very unique and special. It wasn't going to happen just willy-nilly. He was going to pick what he thought I’d sound great on, then we’d try it in rehearsal. There were a lot of band songs that were pretty obvious I probably shouldn't be on; they were too rocking and violin would get drowned out.

I was talking to Rob and his feeling was that your violin functioned in some songs like a lead guitar might. Was that how you thought about it?

It is. I did replace Eric Clapton on Desire. The reason that I flew to New York to break into music was not to be the string-section sweet sound that violins have been known for. This was the way I heard violin: I could replace a lead guitar. My lines were like lead guitar because I made them that way. I heard them that way.

How did you prepare to go on the tour?